The reason the USMC qualification targets are what they are is because they a) represent prone and kneeling humans which coincides with USMC doctrine and b) represent humanoid forms in order to train riflemen to engage humans (See "On Killing" by Grossman). By engaging humanoid targets riflemen learn to establish aiming points on humanoid shapes.
Having said all that when I was running the marksmanship package at the scout-sniper instructor school in Quantico I used NRA repair centers for developing zeroes and initial training but when we qualified, the students we went with FBI silhouettes. When I was an instructor/NCOIC of the National Guard sniper school, we used NRA centers for all KD training including qualification then went with silhouettes for unknown distance.
My point is there are reasons why the military uses the silhouettes.
Jun 13, 2023·edited Jun 13, 2023Liked by FUNshoot News
I think you’re missing 2 key factors in qual course target selection here: ammo quality and rifle quality.
Military acceptance standards on 55gr/62gr ball ammo are generous. 3-4” of vertical dispersion at 100(maybe 50yds) are acceptable for a lot. I don’t know what that represents in terms of velocity difference or grains of powder difference but it’s not insignificant. Whereas, highpower shooters typically load their own and typically see much smaller vertical dispersion.
Rifle quality as well. A mass produced m16 has a worse barrel and trigger than even a RRA NM rifle.
In 1991 I took a rifle team from Marine Corps Security Forces, Mare Island, CA to a local NRA high power match near Fresno. We used M16A2's off the rack that the only selection criteria was the trigger quality. (We went through the rack of unissued rifles and picked the one we wanted. ) Using OD canvas shooting jackets, leather MRT slings and issue 62 gr ball we won all of the stages at the 200 and 300 yard lines. Probably would've done well at the 600 too but the wind was a little too much for the rifle/ammo. After the match we were hanging out in the parking lot and one of the guys who had a NM M1A, leather jacket, yellow glasses etc (You know the type) come up and was like "What the hell did you do to those guns and what ammo are you shooting??" I looked at him and said in my most smart-ass Warrant Officer voice, "We pulled them off the rack and shot what was in the can." He looked at me all pissed and went over to who I think was his gunsmith and was cussing him all over the place. One of my favorite memories.
While about 3-4 MOA may be the minimum that's still acceptable, it's usually better than that. Service Conditions matches (issue equipment and ammo required) most shooters get about 2 MOA with M16/M4 series and M855. Soldiers experiencing worse is due to shooter error or from damage cause by excessive and bad cleaning.
I don’t disagree. My main point here is target size at basic rifle qualification is influenced by ammo quality.
Speculation here: I think you could also argue that, given the amount of non-combat MOSs in the us military, target size/qual scores are influenced by a desire to not fail out too many people. Marksmanship is just not important to about 3/4ths of the Marines and maybe 4/5ths of the Army.
"target size at basic rifle qualification is influenced by ammo quality."
To a degree, but qualification target sizes and standards are more due to personnel ability. Note, Service Conditions matches are shot using the same equipment and ammo, yet scoring is much smaller. Competitions expect much more than mere qualification.
Use of silhouette-shaped targets is a great idea. The issue is not the shape of the target, but the very large external score rings awarding points to shots missing the silhouette along with no scored value to discern centered shots vs. edge hits.
Your use of NRA repair centers is an ideal approach.
The competition silhouette in the video is also a silhouette, has internal score rings rewarding centered shots (like using a repair center) and offers no value for shots missing the entire humanoid shape.
The reason the USMC qualification targets are what they are is because they a) represent prone and kneeling humans which coincides with USMC doctrine and b) represent humanoid forms in order to train riflemen to engage humans (See "On Killing" by Grossman). By engaging humanoid targets riflemen learn to establish aiming points on humanoid shapes.
Having said all that when I was running the marksmanship package at the scout-sniper instructor school in Quantico I used NRA repair centers for developing zeroes and initial training but when we qualified, the students we went with FBI silhouettes. When I was an instructor/NCOIC of the National Guard sniper school, we used NRA centers for all KD training including qualification then went with silhouettes for unknown distance.
My point is there are reasons why the military uses the silhouettes.
I think you’re missing 2 key factors in qual course target selection here: ammo quality and rifle quality.
Military acceptance standards on 55gr/62gr ball ammo are generous. 3-4” of vertical dispersion at 100(maybe 50yds) are acceptable for a lot. I don’t know what that represents in terms of velocity difference or grains of powder difference but it’s not insignificant. Whereas, highpower shooters typically load their own and typically see much smaller vertical dispersion.
Rifle quality as well. A mass produced m16 has a worse barrel and trigger than even a RRA NM rifle.
The difference from issue, rack grade firearms and top match grade competition firearms is about 10%. This video explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tv61Uqh16M&t=15s
In 1991 I took a rifle team from Marine Corps Security Forces, Mare Island, CA to a local NRA high power match near Fresno. We used M16A2's off the rack that the only selection criteria was the trigger quality. (We went through the rack of unissued rifles and picked the one we wanted. ) Using OD canvas shooting jackets, leather MRT slings and issue 62 gr ball we won all of the stages at the 200 and 300 yard lines. Probably would've done well at the 600 too but the wind was a little too much for the rifle/ammo. After the match we were hanging out in the parking lot and one of the guys who had a NM M1A, leather jacket, yellow glasses etc (You know the type) come up and was like "What the hell did you do to those guns and what ammo are you shooting??" I looked at him and said in my most smart-ass Warrant Officer voice, "We pulled them off the rack and shot what was in the can." He looked at me all pissed and went over to who I think was his gunsmith and was cussing him all over the place. One of my favorite memories.
It's almost as if the shooter is most important to good shooting :)
Hmmmmm.... Might be :-)
While about 3-4 MOA may be the minimum that's still acceptable, it's usually better than that. Service Conditions matches (issue equipment and ammo required) most shooters get about 2 MOA with M16/M4 series and M855. Soldiers experiencing worse is due to shooter error or from damage cause by excessive and bad cleaning.
This article and video explains:
https://funshoot.substack.com/p/usmc-marksmanship-marines-and-competition
I don’t disagree. My main point here is target size at basic rifle qualification is influenced by ammo quality.
Speculation here: I think you could also argue that, given the amount of non-combat MOSs in the us military, target size/qual scores are influenced by a desire to not fail out too many people. Marksmanship is just not important to about 3/4ths of the Marines and maybe 4/5ths of the Army.
"target size at basic rifle qualification is influenced by ammo quality."
To a degree, but qualification target sizes and standards are more due to personnel ability. Note, Service Conditions matches are shot using the same equipment and ammo, yet scoring is much smaller. Competitions expect much more than mere qualification.
Use of silhouette-shaped targets is a great idea. The issue is not the shape of the target, but the very large external score rings awarding points to shots missing the silhouette along with no scored value to discern centered shots vs. edge hits.
Your use of NRA repair centers is an ideal approach.
The competition silhouette in the video is also a silhouette, has internal score rings rewarding centered shots (like using a repair center) and offers no value for shots missing the entire humanoid shape.
"Marksmanship is just not important to about 3/4ths of the Marines and maybe 4/5ths of the Army."
"target size/qual scores are influenced by a desire to not fail out too many people."
Everyone involved in military small arms training must come to terms with these truths.